The deadline to register to vote for the LA Streetcar in Downtown LA has passed. Now registered voters within Downtown will be mailing in their votes by mail – to ensure the ballots are received on time, they should be mailed in by November 28. What direction future developments will take in Downtown LA will depend on whether residents see the value of the streetcar circulating pedestrians around town — promoting a walking culture and decreasing our dependency on the automobile — or allowing the status quo to remain perversely slanted toward a car-oriented mentality. This is LA after all, right? Wrong. I believe that most Downtown residents embrace the idea of urbanism and its car-lite or even car-free tenets.
While voting YES for the streetcar is a no-brainer for the vast majority of Downtown residents, a small number have questioned why the private sector should have to pay anything for a public transit project. Let’s face it, and it bears repeating again: The average condo owner would fork out about $60 in tax assessments for an entire year. That’s about half the price of a Disneyland ticket where revelers can ride in, basically, a full-sized toy train looping around the theme park for one whole day. Why wouldn’t you want a real train that takes you to where you need to go for the other 364 days in the year — for half the cost?
Have we not already spent billions and billions more on supporting a car-oriented infrastructure that has gotten us into this mess to begin with? The unending traffic, the incessant lack of parking, the unhealthy dependency on our cars, etc. If you ask me, downtowners spending $62.5 million, in addition to bond issuance costs, of course, is an absolutely tiny price to pay for the tremendous amount of benefits this new streetcar would bring.
The knee jerk reaction I have heard from the few skeptics out there who still view the streetcar with unfounded wariness is “Why do we need a streetcar when we have buses servicing Downtown LA?” That’s a valid concern about service redundancy, but the reality is these are two very different beasts: buses on rubber wheels and the streetcar on fixed rail alignments. The pink elephant in the room refuses to leave no matter how hard we wish more people would just get on those buses.
The fact is, not only is the streetcar going to be more successful at attracting a higher ridership per mile, but its economic development potential cannot be ignored. Especially by the many property owners who obviously want their property values to increase over time. It’s already been proven in cities like Portland, Oregon, that the streetcar attracts investment and fuels urban revitalization. In fact, a Portland study found that $2.28 billion was invested within a few blocks from their streetcar. Given the status of LA’s global position as the country’s second largest city, we can safely assume that the streetcar will attract that kind of investment – if not much, much more – to our city center. And that’s exactly how a streetcar would be completely different than the current DASH system that operates throughout downtown. The streetcar, with its permanent rail tracks in the road, has a much stronger identity, and consequently, a much broader appeal to the masses. Also, think of the visitors who are completely unfamiliar with LA who have no idea how to navigate the city by bus but will be able to understand quickly how to get around Downtown LA due to the streetcar.
As far along as Downtown LA has come, those of us who pay attention to Downtown development also realize there is a lot more to be done before we can sit back and say “we’re finally there.” There are still huge swaths of dilapidated buildings that the streetcar route plans to go by. Think of all the undeveloped potential in South Park, the Fashion District, Broadway, and along 11th Street that could become the next hot spots, but without the streetcar, will continue to exist on “the fringe” of Downtown for the foreseeable future. The streetcar would put these fringe areas on the map because eyes and bodies would constantly ride by, which is conducive to future developments.
And let’s not forget that the streetcar is relatively easy to expand. Yes, Downtown LA’s first route is only the beginning. Once we set the precedent that the system works well, we can begin to expand it to other parts of Downtown LA such as the Arts District and even Chinatown over the freeway. Eventually, I see the streetcar emanating out of Downtown LA like it once did when the Pacific Electric Red Cars connected neighborhoods like Echo Park, Silver Lake, and Los Feliz along Sunset Blvd. Imagine a future where you’ll be able to go between Los Feliz and Downtown LA and everywhere in between, car-free, all because we made the right decision to start with the LA Streetcar in Downtown LA.
awwww i wish i knew =[ i'm from san diego but i think it's also fair if potential future residents should be able to vote to.. as i plan to ultimately want to live in downtown los angeles =]….anyways.. hope the streetcar becomes a reality!!!
I <3 LA!!!
GREAT post btw… i completely agree with everything you said 1,000,000%
Downtown LA is SO small. It’s highly walkable. It doesn’t need a “Disneyland toy train.”
This op-ed sounds like it was written by the streetcar people (shills for downtown developer$).
If only we could be so lucky as to have a company like Disneyland glance at Downtown.
Anyways. If you would please read the size’s of Downtown LA & Downtown Portland (linked below).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Portland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Los_Angeles
The streetcar is not a bad idea, but funds is should be taken from businesses along the route and not from Residential home owners. This will be great for BUSINESSES from a tourism standpoint. As far as Downtown walking, I dont buy it, I walk right now from the Arts District to Convention center in 25 minutes…Its very walkable.
It’s going to benefit everbody. We should all pay.
“Imagine a future where you’ll be able to go between Los Feliz and Downtown LA and everywhere in between, car-free, all because we made the right decision to start with the LA Streetcar in Downtown LA.”
Why imagine it when this service already exists?
Bus # 2 and the Red Line both travel from Downtown LA to Los Feliz.
Now imagine this: being stuck behind the streetcar as passengers are boarding / disembarking all along already congested 7th Street, Hill or Broadway, especially during rush hour.
And what’s up with proposed route? There’s the leg of the streetcar that goes up Hill for blocks and down Broadway. These streets are only 1 block apart. In other words, where’s the need for transit? And even if I’m at say Figueroa and 9th and I want to go 7th and Broadway, I can walk there in less time than the streetcar will take (not including waiting for the next car) AND get exercise and maybe stop in a store or two and spend money.
Voting for this project is nuts.
You obviously don’t understand what you’re talking about on many levels. I’m not going to go into the detailed differences between buses & streetcars and how the city was better before the streetcar was overthrown to be replaced by buses.
Being able to walk somewhere quicker than the streetcar would get you there also has very little to do with the point of the streetcar.
People need to educate themselves on urban planning – at least briefly – before spewing nonsense before the public eye.
I must be as ignorant as HG since I agree with everything in his post. If the streetcar is not quicker than walking, then what IS the point? I think HG is exactly right that it’s a Disney toy train, like the train at the Americana in Glendale.
It’s also unclear whether the benefits Portland experienced were CAUSED by the streetcar. The re-development of downtown Portland was already happening, just as it’s already happening here. Should we infer that NOT having a streetcar is good for development?
Let’s invest $100 million in improving the Dash and the traffic light system. As an urban planning expert, Mr. Kerhart, I’m sure you know that there are ways to improve bus ridership. Other cities have done it. It’s much cheaper and helps more people and gets more cars off the road than this silly project will.
Lets vote to repeal “Anti-Gridlock” parking if you care about pedestrians over cars……cost: FREE
I think the streetcar is not really mean for transit purposes but more for tourism and to bring more attention to downtown.
What about all of the apartment renters?….Does this mean that my rent will go up 60 dollars a year?
….in addition to regular rent increases??? I hope not.
Yes.
That is the cost of living in an improving neighborhood..
I disagree somewhat. Some landlords might raise their rents but I would not be compelled to charge more for my tenants. The rents have been increasing Downtown and all over Los Angeles, but if Downtown becomes less desireable because it is overpriced, it hurts everyone. So, it really depends on your building….the amount can be covered in a regular increase.
I own a handful of loft rental units Downtown and I 100% support this even though it will cost me a bit. The streetcar will give us more options..but what I love about it is that it will link the hotels on the westside of Downtown to the Historic Core…and will be attractive, easy to climb aboard and SAFE. I think Downtown is safe but tourists may be less likely to venture closer to skid row. The restaurants and shops on Broadway and Spring will see a surprising amount of tourism dollars that they are not getting now.
The big difference between buses and the streetcar is that the streetcar can move exponentially more people in a shorter amount of time and more frequently. This is evidenced by what you saw in Manhattan following Sandy.
The streetcar will be an extremely important mechanism for the development of the NFL stadium. The streetcar will connect persons parking in subterranean garages throughout the city (ie Pershing Square, Cal Plaza, Music Center, Grand Park etc) to LA Live. Conversely, it will connect persons parking and attending events at LA Live (including attendees to conventions) to what will be a revived Broadway Entertainment District, shops and restaurants in the historic district pumping millions of dollars (and jobs) into our economy. Without the streetcar businesses in the historic core will NOT benefit from the billions of dollars being invested into the South Park neighborhood. Potential jobs will be lost to areas more walkable to the LA Live.
I don’t know how easy it is to get from Ralphs to 6th & Spring on a city bus if you have 4 bags of groceries in your hands, and would assume it would be much easier to make this trip by streetcar than by bus because, by nature, streetcars have more room for bicycles and shopping bags which buses do not. Streetcars tend to also run very frequently.
Regardless, the bus and streetcar couldn’t be any more different in terms of their impact on both convenience and commerce. A big problem is that most people still do not know how streetcars work and I think that poses a major problem in getting this passed.
A street car addition and the increased development of downtown will cause condo values to increase by a much larger amount than the increased tax.
With so many DTLA condo owners foreclosing and their condos upside down, they’re going to welcome years of higher taxes and most of downtown being torn up for years on end.
The light at the end of the tunnel? NFL fans and LA Liver’s will gobble up the already limited parking of the historic core, get drunk at the games and vandalize the Historic Core returning to their cars. Remember the taxi that Lakers fans set on fire while others looted the surrounding restaurants?
what a retarded comment
I’m sorry, but you’re out to lunch. If you think LA Live and sports goers are parking in the historic core, you don’t know the area at all.
HG, you are an idiot.
Speaking as a resident of Portland … yes, we had billions invested within a few blocks of the streetcar. However, the streetcar ran through the Pearl District (think South Park with a ten year head start) and a pair of brownfields that are being redeveloped into the northern end of the Pearl and the new South Waterfront district (abandoned shipyards being replaced with high-rise riverfront condos and a new medical school campus). Nearly all of that development was going to happen anyway, with or without the streetcar. I think it’s fair to say that once the streetcar opened, developers were willing to build the new condos a few stories higher, but I can’t tell how much of that was the greater marketability of units next to a streetcar stop, how much was “proof of concept” that there was real demand for that kind of urban neighborhood, and how much was just the real estate bubble.
I will say that if you want any chance for the streetcar to spur development, make sure it runs past a lot of vacant and/or parking lots. No guarantee though — there are half-block and full-block parking lots next to the streetcar line here that have remained there for more than a decade. Apparently the owners find that charging for parking still brings in more revenue than development, even with a streetcar stop right across the street.
Personally, I was VERY skeptical about the Portland Streetcar before it opened. I thought it was a ridiculous idea and said a lot of the things people are saying here. Now that it’s opened, I’ve become a fan through use. I ride it at least a couple times a week, and it’s frequently packed even outside rush hour. It’s much faster to board and deboard than the bus (three doors, two of them very wide, and you buy your fare from a machine instead of the driver, which eliminates queuing), offers a smoother ride, and the route takes you through a lot of great neighborhoods. It gets a lot of use from downtown residents and from tourists.
As for LA…. well, I can’t say for sure. I would be inclined to vote for it because of my experience with the streetcar here. If I were a property owner, I’d put my money on the streetcar increasing the value of my property. But LA has a different downtown than Portland, different development patterns, different routing … it’s apples and oranges. I don’t have the expertise to figure out if what ultimately worked up here would also work down there.
Hi Brigham,
I wanted to chime in here because I see that a lot of people are evaluating the streetcar pretty shallowly, in my opinion. The streetcar is not meant to be a Disneyland-type mode of transportation. It’s not meant to be redundant of Dash, the bus system, or the Metro. And, it is not a matter of the walkability from point A to point B– like Pershing Square to LA Live, for example. It really comes down to economics and the distribution of the development. We are seeing increasingly concentrated development in DTLA– parts of the historic core, South park, Bunker Hill, etc. However, there isn’t a connection between all of them and it is causing pockets of beautiful buildings and vacant ones. The street car would be a mode of transportation unlike most others. They create circular patterns of riders. Busses, trains, and most other modes are mostly meant to be linear in that you get on a bus to go to a single place. This results in development around the stations but not in between The street car does not have the same effect– it moves people in a circular way so there’s more development between the stations. Think of it like the trams at better-than-LAX airports. They’re not meant to be point A to point B transporters. They’re meant to circulate people around the airport. The never-to-happen subway extension into LAX serves the linear transport role. That said, when you have a mechanism to circulate people around an area, it spurs development more uniformly around that city. If you look at the route, it’s obviously meant to help spur development along Broadway and some other areas that seem rather stubborn to develop (compared to other areas of Downtown). That said, there’s another huge reason why you want a streetcar over the Dash, for example. The Dash’s stations can move on a day’s notice. It can close a route or change the system pretty rapidly. That’s what great about buses– their flexibility. But that’s not what you want for development. You want something permanent. Developers, apartment purchasers, and retailers do not care that there’s a bus stop in front of their property. Everyone has a bus stop in front of their property. But to have a permanent, easy mode of transportation meant to circulate people downtown increases property value– and spurs the development in the first place. The streetcar is estimated to produce a 17x economic benefit for DTLA– it’s like $160 million and will produce around $1billion in development. I can’t think of another project with that kind of payoff/economic benefit. It’s primary benefit is not to help tourists or the elderly get to LA Live and it’s not meant to just be an attraction.
I’ll pay $60 a year to help revive Broadway.
Elan, LA’s original streetcar system — a true network that serviced the entire city — was built and understood to be “permanent” but we all know that it wasn’t. We have its ghostly unusable tracks to remind us of this.
Not sure what you’re going on about with trams at airports as yes, they are very destination oriented. That’s their point. They’re not meant to spur development between Concourse A and Concourse B.
It begs asking who is coming up with these lofty “economic benefit” figures that you’re quoting? Huizar?
Doug, you’re right – comparing Portland’s topography, development patterns, etc. with that of DTLA is very apples vs oranges. Portland’s streetcar, for one, transports people across the river at two points.
What makes people so adverse to walking the easily walkable DTLA? The streets downtown can barely accommodate the car traffic, increased bikes and pedestrians safely as it is.
Take a look at the extensive DASH map: http://ladottransit.com/dash/routes/downtown/downtown.php
Let’s funnel money into something that works, that exists, goes in multiple directions, transports riders throughout DTLA as well as in and out of it. We don’t need something shiny and new to instigate economic growth — we need smarter minds and attractive marketing (and a more intuitive website) to make it thrive.
Thank you Mr. Kelso for sharing your Portland experiences.
The claim that keeps getting repeated is that the LA Streetcar will produce development. But that’s already happening. Target and LA Live etc are not going to leave if the streetcar doesn’t get built.
And, I’m sure I’d find reason to ride the streetcar if it were built. (I actually live here, Mr. Yen) I think that’s a red herring. The question is not would you rather have a streetcar or buses? The question is whether this streetcar is the best way to spend our transportation dollars. Many of us who oppose the Streetcar say no. We think that upgrading our existing public transportation would be better.
I’ve heard this “Streetcars are more permanent” argument before too. Are you kidding? Read up about the fantastic streetcar system LA once had. The permanence of the Dash system and its routes depends on public support and funding. And I think the Dash bus system is great, though I wish it had longer hours and included weekend service. But do you think the Dash system will be improved if we get this Streetcar? Where will the money come from?
And why is it that those who disagree with you pro-Streetcar people must be “ignorant” or “shallow” etc. I think you have drunk the Streetcar-kool-aid. No wonder after all the money spent to sway voters–free food and drink, free movies, etc.
All I keep hearing are the same tired bad arguments about how the Streetcar will PRODUCE all this development. Let me repeat: The development is happening anyway. I know some of you want the rundown-brown sections of Broadway (the parts that are “stubborn to be developed”) to turn into something like Old Town Pasadena or the Americana. Not all of us think that would be an improvement.
And of course, the Streetcar would be nice to have. But I’d like to have a Porsche, that doesn’t mean it makes sense for me to spend my transportation dollars on one.
Dario and HG,
I think you make a good point about the “false choice” of voting for the street car. Voting yes or no for the street car may be a false choice because there may be another option that is outside of this yes/no paradigm. If I were to list all the item that would help advance DTLA, I wouldn’t put the street car at the top of the list. Why? Well, because there may be other initiatives that I think would have a greater impact on DTLA.
If you’re saying that there may be another self-imposed tax in the future for another project that would have a higher impact on DTLA and you’re waiting to spend the money you would have to spend on the streetcar for that initiative, I think that’s fair. But I don’t think it’s a matter of collective “transportation dollars”. There isn’t a pool of federal/state/local money set aside for DTLA that we’re allocating for specific projects. And I’m not convinced that if we build a streetcar we would be disqualified from receiving federal/state/local funding for those projects.
So I think it really comes down to the self-imposed tax. And if it comes down to approximately $60 a year for me, I am willing to pay for it. And if another transportation initiative finds its way to the ballot, one that I think would have a greater impact on DTLA, I will most likely vote for that, too. So, I won’t go out to dinner one night and, in return, help build a streetcar in DTLA.
I do find it difficult to argue that the streetcar wouldn’t have a significant benefit. I stand by my numbers. Naturally, as in the case with Portland, it is difficult to tease out causation and correlation. But I think that’s for another thread.
I think you make a good point, HG, about the airport. I fundamentally see it differently, but your point is valid. I’m trying to say that there is a difference in ridership flow from the Gold Line compared to a small, circular system– like the Dash or the proposed streetcar. And both the Dash and the streetcar encourage development in a wide area more than general bus lines, light rail, subway, etc. And the (relative) permanence of the lines play a role.
As for the shallow comment, Dario,- I think you misunderstood me. I didn’t call people shallow. The arguments against the streetcar that I’ve heard are shallow- meaning that they assume that the only reason Huizar and other proponents want the street car is to have a tourist attraction in DTLA. I’d like to think that there is a deeper rationale to building a streetcar. I think the deeper conversation is the one we are having now about funding allocation and prioritization and not Disneyland.
And for the record, I have not been to one streetcar event or participated in the campaign in any way. And I live in DTLA.
I am not one to generally post on blogs. I find that people’s reactions are generally argumentative (mine may have been included on that). But I think your tone, Dario, is a little out of line. Maybe it’s typical for blogs, I don’t know.
Have they determined yet, how much fares will be each way? (In addition to the $60/year, you will have pay each time you ride.
time just changed y’all
It’s not a flat $ 60/year. As was told at a streetcar meeting, your annual tax will depend on the square footage of your residence, so the owners of larger spaces will pay more accordingly.
It’s unclear who will pay for the ongoing maintenance and operation of the streetcar once it’s in place.
You can use a TAP card with monetary points on the DASH, but it doesn’t seem that this convenience will be available for the streetcar.
Give up already? If you live in DTLA and dont want progress (like this) then just move to Bev Hills or something..
$60 flat rate was never told at a streetcar meeting (not by anyone actually affiliated with the project). Don’t make it out like they’re lying to anybody.
There is no reason to think TAP wouldn’t be accepted.. It’s too early to make silly statements like that.
That whiny “Why don’t you move to [blank]…” reaction is so fresh and effective in adult discourse.
And yes, at a recent streetcar meeting, a sliding scale was presented where the square footage of a resident’s dwelling would determine the tax paid and the figure of $ 60 was also presented as an estimated minimum.
You’re right about the sliding scale, which seems appropriate to me, but you write as if you’re a shill for some kind of anti-tax wing nut group. I’m not sure why you think the DASH system and walking are the only things that work. Have you ever ridden a modern street car like in europe? They work very well and are anything but Disney-like. Much nicer than buses. And walking is not a cure all (and I love to walk). You can’t simply tell everyone to walk everywhere. It’s not practical.
But since you love to walk so much, you should be loving this idea. The point of the street car is to tie the neighborhood together which right now is very very patchy. And yes development is happening, but we’re very far from having a cohesive downtown. Think of the streetcar as a kind of measure J for downtown in a way. It should make development happen faster as well as making more of downtown livable and walkable. You’ll have a lot more places to walk than you do now.
Brudy, you’re funny. Politically presumptuous — if not a touch paranoid — yet a laugh, nonetheless.
I have ridden (and continue to ride) European streetcars — real ones, well-designed streetcars all throughout Europe and the UK and have so for over 25 years. The proposed trolley thing in downtown cannot even be compared to a European transit system. Why? For starters, the thing doesn’t really go anywhere. save for a little donut loop. Any European accustomed to using trams (as we call them) would giggle at this pet project. It would remind them of Euro-Disney back at home.
I also question this development dream of thinking downtown is a failure unless the less densely developed “patches” are quickly stitched together. The bar-dense (and drunk dense) Spring Street corridor may appeal less to someone who appreciates a pocket of quiet, yet who still enjoys living downtown.
Development doesn’t automatically mean a better downtown nor a more cultured downtown living experience. It could also mean more garbage fast food restaurants and bleak corporate stores. We”re already seeing that with locals allowing non-local Starbucks to move into a block with 4 (FOUR) independent cafes – one next door and one directly across the street, now forced to sell beer and wine in hopes of staying alive.
Fix the sidewalks and make the streets safe enough to ride a bike on, then maybe put in this little train.
I’m for closing Broadway to through traffic between Olympic & 2nd. Make it a giant promenade with cafes ,theaters and cool shops. I don’t need a train to get from Family Pants to the other Family Pants!
Look at other North American streetcar systems. Imho dt LA is the perfect place for a streetcar. Though we see lots of development downtown it’s rather large, spreadout and disconnected. The streetcar would connect these areas together and as dt grows DASH is definately not the answer.